Growth & Feedback Without Fear

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Lauren shares how to give supportive feedback without fear and offers simple strategies for regulated accountability and workplace growth.

In this episode, Lauren explores how leaders can promote growth and give feedback without triggering fear or threat responses. She explains why traditional evaluation systems dysregulate staff and why regulation, clarity and collaborative feedback matter for culture and performance.

She shares strategies like predictable check ins, strengths first framing, and micro goals to make feedback supportive instead of punitive. Learn how to build systems that create clarity, trust, and empowered growth.

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Transcript:

Lauren Spigelmyer: Ugh, y'all, I'm so excited for this episode. I… Now, I think, I think because growth-oriented is such a huge value of mine, like, I, as a child, had this dream of growing up and, like, holding all the information in the world. I was like, how cool would it be to, like, know everything? I think it'd actually be pretty awful now, thinking about that, but…it's always been a value of mine to be learning and growing, and I especially love learning and growing in the area of, like, psychology. So, I can mix psychology with growth, and talk about how, like, organizations can focus on growth and feedback. In a, like, positive, psychological way. It's like blending all the things I love together, so… Oh, look, this episode's gonna be fire! This series has been really good. Humbly. Humbly good. Okay, so today, we are gonna focus on… how do we promote growth and give feedback without, like, prompting fear in someone. So, essentially, we're gonna talk about how leaders can create growth and provide feedback, and hold accountability in their systems, that help to regulate a system as a whole and individuals, individually, rather than send them into a dysregulated state or a threat response state, which means… we will then move into a place where we feel supported, or, you know, everybody feels supported, but especially those that are receiving the feedback and the accountability and the growth actions. These people will feel supported, they will have clarity, and they will feel empowered, because it's not just someone talking at them, it's someone talking with them. Ultimately, I feel like this is such a powerful episode, because… I don't think people know how to give feedback well and I think a lot of the feedback metrics that we use in most organizations today are… threat-inducing. They're not… might be helpful, might give you data, but it's just not data that really helps the organizational, organizational culture, or the nervous system of the organization function well. And if you're always disturbing the nervous system and always sending people into a threat response then they're not going to be incredibly productive, they're not going to… they're going to feel drained, they're not gonna love their job as much, they're not going to want to come to work as much, so… Let's focus on feedback. For most people, probably because of how feedback has been given in their lives, whether as a child in school or in their workplace, feedback often triggers the same brain pathways, or the same, like, neural patternings that are activated when we experience physical danger. Like, think about that for a second. Feedback that's meant to help people grow, typically, because of patterning that already exists tells the brain that they are in something similar to that of physical danger. But, if you can rewire those neural workings, and learn how to do this in a way that is regulated then feedback becomes one of the most powerful tools for building confidence, improving culture, helping people to grow, so it's super important and also incredibly influential. And I feel like a major piece that's missing in most organizations. I think about all the organizations I worked for, and the feedback, and the ways that it came in, and the way I was… provided feedback, or held accountable, and… I can't really think of one model where I was like, yeah, that organization or those people, they did it well. I left those meetings to feel like, let's go, I'm ready, I want to learn, I want to get better. No, not really.

Lauren Spigelmyer: So, we're gonna start with… why this feedback even feel like a threat? Like, I mentioned a moment ago that it feels like sometimes it's similar to, like, physical danger. So why does it feel that way? Like, what neural patterning was set in place that makes us feel that way? Okay, well, one, the brain naturally associates correction with social rejection. Why does that matter? Correction equals social rejection. We are biological, we are, like… biologically, we are… driven to feel a sense of belonging, to feel a sense of connection, and we're actually feeling a lot of disconnection of that lately because of… not lately, in the last many years. Mostly because of technology, and we think we're connecting with people, but we're not. And we're so stimulated by all the things, we're losing social connection. So, eons ago, hunter-gatherers, we had to have social connection, because if we didn't, and we weren't accepted by our tribe, and we weren't closely connected, we didn't survive. We needed the tribe members as a cohesive whole to help us survive all the elements. So, the brain… tells us that this correction, or this, like, negative feedback is that you're being socially rejected by the person who is speaking to you. So, when it's, like, an organization, like, you're being rejected by the organization, or you're being rejected by the leadership of the organization, which isn't always true. Like, sometimes it really feels that way, but if it is coming across that way, and it is, like, truly that way, then the correction isn't being provided the right way. So, okay, that's number one. So, correction from the beginning, biologic is just hard to receive, in general. Okay, if your team is already highly dysregulated because your organization is dysregulated then feedback starts to feel really personal, and I have felt this. Even if the organization is decent, but my personal life was feeling really dysregulated. Feedback in the organization felt personal, because I was already on edge even if it wasn't personal at all. It felt that way because I was dysregulated from my own personal life things. A lot of this is because our traditional evaluation systems really prime fear and not growth. Like, we will base salaries on these things. I worked for an organization where, like, there were all these, like, number metrics, and there were all these goals of these, like, pretty high number metrics, and, like, gotta hit this number, we gotta hit this number. Every meeting was like, here's where the numbers are, here's where your numbers are, and I'm just like, oh my gosh, I'm so sick of hearing about the numbers, like, how about what I am doing as a human being? Like, I don't care about my numbers. I mean, I do, kind of, because of social rejection, but… I don't want to care about them this much. I don't want them to feel like they're strangling me.

Lauren Spigelmyer: So… How do we create valuation systems that are helpful, not hurtful, but also regulating and not dysregulating? When people are regularly and frequently sent into states of nervous system dysregulation, it reduces their ability to produce, to retain information. They, like, hear little nuanced things. When you are in a more dysregulated state, you become, like, hypersensitive, almost hypervigilant. And nuances, change of tone, change of body language, all these things start… you pick up on them, subconsciously or consciously, probably more subconsciously, but… that it triggers you, it triggers your threat detection. Like, social rejection, like, I heard that change in voice, I heard that change in tone, like, their body language, like, you become hypersensitive, and…little tiny things that maybe wouldn't have set you off, start to set you off, because you're just… hearing little nuanced pieces that you might not have heard before. So… what we want feedback to feel like is co-regulations. We've talked a lot about co-regulation in lots of episodes, meaning that, like, if leadership to… to, employer… employee, how does the leadership stay regulated or get regulated to help the employee stay regulated or get regulated if they're becoming dysregulated? Like, from the top down, we have to regulate. If we allow the dysregulation of the bottom up to dysregulate us, the entire organization becomes dysregulated. So, we want Feedback to feel like regulation and co-regulation. When we deliver feedback from a regulated place, Feedback feels like support. It does not feel like micromanagement, it does not feel like surveillance, it does not feel like, I gotcha! Staff stays open. Staff stays curious. Staff stays engaged. I feel like a good example of this that just, like, randomly popped into my mind, so many schools do unannounced walk-ins, and they have, like, a checklist. I hate that. Let me just be real, real blunt, I hate that. I have gone into schools where I was… I'm not admin, I was coming in as an outside support, for coaching support, and gone into classrooms and observed, not with a checklist, but they're so used to the checklist, I thought I had a checklist, and a lot of those individuals immediately followed up with me and asked, not from a place of curiosity, not from a place of staying open, not from a place of engagement, can you tell me how I did? What did I do? Like, they were so scared for the feedback, because they'd gotten harsh feedback, or didn't have enough checkboxes on the checklist. And I was like, actually I wasn't taking notes on you as an individual, I was taking notes on, like, the school's collective whole, and trying to get little snapshots in each room to paint a bigger picture of where are the strengths and weaknesses as an entire school. So, I actually don't really have notes on you specifically. So, I think there are better ways that we can do that. Also, when you are delivering feedback, holding accountability, doing evaluations, It really feels… clear when you come from a regulated place. It feels grounded, and it doesn't feel so shaming. Also, when delivered well, from place of regulation, growth feels and becomes collaborative. It feels like it's not one party speaking down to another, but we're both at it together. And it doesn't feel so patronizing, it doesn't feel so punitive, and it kind of feels like, oh, someone cares about me, my well-being, and my, like…

how I'm performing and wants me to do better and wants me to grow, I see someone who cares about me. I see someone who is with me. I see someone who wants me to be my best. And that feels a lot better than I feel like I see someone who got me.

Lauren Spigelmyer: So, okay, let's… talk about how to… build… regulating feedback. How to create, like, systems, rituals, and, like, a company-wide culture, where when feedback is coming, it comes from a regulated place, and it helps to keep people regulated. Okay, so there's some key elements here in regulated feedback. One, you need rhythms. Rhythms are regulating. The brain loves repetition. The brain loves, like, organized, sequential repetition. So, what I would do is I would create predictable, low-stakes, low anxiety check-ins. Maybe they're weekly, maybe they're monthly, probably not any more than month… probably not any less than monthly. But they're predictable because they happen, like, the same day, or the same time, or the same time of the month. They always happen every month, or they always happen every week, and they're short. They're not long and drawn out. They don't, like, over-discuss. But it creates a rhythm, it creates a routine, you know it's coming, it becomes predictable, the brain likes that. Can help with regulation. Also, be really clear about why. Like, why is this particular type of feedback important? It's about their growth, sure. We're not trying to punish them, and if you are not making it about growth, and you are punishing them, then you might rethink that, but… making sure that they're clear on why this feedback is coming, and why it's coming the way that it's coming, and why we're using these systems. Like, people need to know the why. If they don't know the why, they make up their own why, and usually that's not the same why that we have. So, clear is kind, as Brene says. So, be clear on what the why is for the type of communication, and why, and how it's being delivered. One of the next big ones, and this one's hard because people just aren't self-aware of their body language, their facial expressions, their tone, the way their body is moving. You want to give feedback from a very neutral standpoint. So, if you are not regulated before you give me that feedback, get regulated. Find ways to get regulated. You want to keep a neutral tone, you want to keep a calm voice, you want to keep a steady pace, you want to keep non-reactive body language. Because if the organizational whole, or the person, is a little bit dysregulated coming in, which often they are, because as a society, we're pretty dysregulated. They are paying attention to all those nuanced pieces. So how you physically show up with your body, your face, your tone, really impacts how they're going to receive that feedback. Also, make it a bilateral conversation. In fact, I would even start with staff first. Give staff the voice first. How do you feel about how is this going? What are your thoughts on… open it up for them to share how they think it's going. I actually experienced this today when I went to a parent-teacher conference. I fully expected the parent, or the… I'm the parent, the teacher to come in and say, like, here's how it's going, here are the strengths and weaknesses, and like, here's… some of them do, like, what do they do? Glows and grows, and… All these things. We sat down, and she was like, I actually just really like to start with, do you have any questions, or is there anything that you want to address? And I was like, yes! Bingo! Like, I do. This is awesome. Thank you for starting this way, because you're inviting bilateral conversation, even though you're not… you're giving me feedback, but you're, like, giving me feedback about my child. It's not, like, to me directly, it really is towards me. But that is a beautiful way to start this conversation. Thank you for modeling this so well.

Lauren Spigelmyer: Okay, then, I think a lot of people do do this one, but I think that they do it in a crappy way: Strength first framing. So, when I used to teach Writer's Workshop in education, when I would do conferencing with students, because I'm giving them feedback, the conference would do, like, okay, the first step was, you listen to what they are writing about. So, I'm going in the bilateral conversation, I ask them to tell me about what they're writing about. So, I invite them into the conversation, I give them the first voice, I let them tell me what's going on. I, like, think I'm, like, I'm building rapport with them, I'm building trust with them, I'm saying I care about you, that's what bilateral conversation does. That's the first step in the writing workshop, conferencing. Then I would move into… an affirmation, so essentially a strength-first frame. And what that would do is it, like, boost them with dopamine, boost them with serotonin, all the happy chemicals. So, okay, they're up here, like, this person cares about me, they're asking about what I'm doing, they're, like, giving me their full attention in a neutral way. They just affirm something I'm doing really well. I'm, like, all high, and on chemicals of life and biology and then, BOOM! I came in with the teaching point. But they were ready for it then, they could handle it then. So… with providing feedback to adults, strength first framing is, like, here's what's working, here's what's going well. Then, I would move from, like, not strength and weaknesses, or not, like, grows and glows, or whatever they're called. I really like strength and stretch. Here are your strengths, let's stretch those strengths, or let's stretch the things that aren't the strengths yet together. I like stretch, because that's what we're doing, we're scaffolding things to build out. So, that is exactly what I did when I went into the teaching point of that writing workshop conference, was, here's a teaching point, here's where I think we can stretch, let's do it together. I'm going to show you how to do one first, then we're going to do an example together, then you're on your own. I'm going to help you stretch, I'm going to scaffold it, I'm going to give you a pathway for getting to the end result. Too often, we come in and be like, here are your strengths, here are your weaknesses, see you later, like, write a plan of action, like, what are you gonna do next? Like… people need a pathway, because if they don't have something as a strength, it's probably because they don't know how to do it. Because if they did, they'd be doing it. Everyone wants to do well. So, what we do then is we create small, specific, actionable steps or micro goals. The biggest problem I see with feedback at the end is, like, okay, here's the weaknesses, or like, here's your goal, or, like, what do you think your goal should be? It's too vast. Again, people don't know how to get there, that's why they're not there. So, they need really small goals, micro goals, little tiny steps, and small, specific, actionable steps. That's why when I would teach the teaching point, I'd do, okay, here's one that we can do together, okay, or here's one that I'm going to teach you, here's one that we can do together, here you're on your own. So, I would gradually release the skill that I'm trying to teach them to them. The nervous system likes chunks, tiny little chunks. When it's one big thing, and we don't even know where to take the first step in that big thing, the nervous system is like, buh! Threat alert! I don't know, I'm lost. So, you want to break it down. Micro goals, little tiny steps. That's what's gonna get them moving, that's gonna build the momentum, and then they keep going. Okay That… is something I think we should pause here and think about. Like, is that what your feedback and evaluation currently looks like? And if not, can you make any little tiny shifts there to get closer to that? Because what we're going into next is what dysregulated accountability and feedback looks like. This one's probably not gonna feel so nice to receive, so… good to pause, reflect, get yourself in a good headspace and we're gonna go into this…

Lauren Spigelmyer: Dysregulated accountability. Here's what it looks like. The worst one? Ugh, I cringe at this one. Public correction. I see it in family systems the most. I see it with, often, wives to husbands. Sometimes husbands to wives, but more so of wives to husbands and for the life of me, I pray to God that I do not do that to my husband. It is so shame-heavy. It's so embarrassing for everybody. It's so… ugh, it's so… it's so gross. Publicly shaming people, publicly correcting people, ugh. If, like, one thing I could erase from feedback forever, it would be that. It's so hard to see, it's so hard to watch, it's so hard to listen to, and that said, like, I'm not perfect either. I probably have done it, I probably will do it again in the future, but what I hope is that either someone calls me into awareness, or I step into awareness, and I do the repair work that needs to be done after I do it. I don't intend to be perfect, but I do intend to do better. Don't publicly shame people. Like, sudden, quick escalations inside of a feedback session or an accountability session, because people feel threatened and you can tell in body language, you can tell in their words, you can tell in their actions, so that's why you want to kind of, like, pause and reset and regulate, or pause and table and come back. Like, we don't want to keep going when people are very suddenly escalated, because it means that they got fired up fast. Even if you, like, see a slow escalation build, that's not ideal either, but at least you can catch it sooner with that. If it's sudden, like, that's… that's a flag. Stop. Stop, stop, stop, and regulate, or pause and come back. I also feel like sometimes people don't hit expectations because they don't know them, or they're not clear, they're very vague. So be very clear on what it is that you want, your micro goals, and what steps you need the person to take to get there, because again, if they already knew how to do that, they would be doing that. So, make it clear for them, or work with them to get it clear. Problem solve together. The other thing I see really frequently, and I think that people think that, I think they do this because… they see it as, like, moving towards growth, or more growth. Or, I mean, stretching people, stretching in, like, a negative way, is, like, moving the goalpost. It's, like, moving the standards. Like, you hit the standard, and it's like, okay, well, now it's here, actually. Okay, now it's here. Okay, now that… like, pause, celebrate, like, micro goals are worth a celebration, hitting micro goals. Don't keep just moving the goalpost, and never praising, and never recognizing the growth that has been developed. Ugh, gotcha, leadership! That's where that, like, classroom structure with a checklist, that feels like such a gotcha thing, and I don't like it. I don't like it at all. I want to feel like no matter who I work for, if I really botch it, that I am not… well, depends on the level of botch. Some things deserve an immediate fire, sometimes you legally have to fire for, but… I want to feel like if I make a mistake that can be recovered from, that I'm not gonna feel like, gotcha. I'm gonna feel like… that was not great. And someone's like, I have a lot of grace for you, and compassion and I'm gonna move you into growth. We… Jessica and I, talk about… we have a trauma-informed accountability session where we talk about, what do we call it, the patience without progress trap, so it's where you have too much patience for people, and they're not progressing, and it's like a trauma-informed trap. Sometimes with trauma-informed care, we… people tend to have, like, too much grace and compassion. So, what we move people into is grace and growth response. So, like, we basically validate and say, like, I have a lot of grace for what you just did, or what you're doing. And also, like, we need to change some things, so let's move into, like, a growth-based pattern. So, validating, accepting. Maybe even getting curious, and then moving them to growth. So, grace and growth over patience without progress. Long, long, long, long gaps with no feedback, followed by often intense criticism. I remember for a couple jobs, I had, like, either, like, quarterly evaluations. It wasn't enough. I don't like frequent meetings, I don't like meeting all the time, but… I also think that when you meet, like, once or twice a year, or, like, every quarter even, it's maybe not quite enough, and then you got all this feedback, and I'm like, well, you didn't see all the other things I was doing the other however many days of the quarter, or days of the year. So… thinking about how can we… shorten some of those gaps and give a little bit more feedback a little bit more regularly. And make sure that the feedback, if given less regularly, is not just straight criticism, and that it's not, like, intense. It doesn't feel like a lot of criticism, and you, like, have to give a lot of negative feedback, because it's the only time you're giving feedback. So, shorten the gaps. If those things, if any of those things are happening, what staff enter into is, like, one of two sides of the nervous system. They either go into a, like, defensive, tension, fight back, like, sympathetic side of the nervous system. Sometimes they get so lodged up there from the feedback or the culture that they get into, like, a freeze state,

their high anxiety freeze state. Or, people might go down into the parasympathetic system, where there's just, like, so much negativity and so much toxicity that they enter a freeze state on the opposite side, where they literally are internally, like, disassociative and disconnected. So, we don't want a freeze state on either side. We don't even want them to really go into sympathetic state, either. We want to stretch them. Help them regulate, come at them… not come at them… come to them from a regulated place, and help them to co-regulate.

Lauren Spigelmyer: Okay, so ultimately, some of those dysfunctional, dysregulated things are probably happening or going to happen. We're probably not doing all the things that are, like, the healthy form of co-regulated accountability. You're going to have little blips because of your own history, or childhood, or work experiences, and your own neural patterning, and you're a human, and you're gonna slip up, and that's okay. Have some grace for yourself. And then grow. Grace and growth. You want to then move into repair, because repair regulates. So you’ve… done something dysregulating to someone, or caused dysregulation, own that, and then move into a repair state. I think one of the most amazing things I have done myself, and I've heard from others, I've seen others do, I think is such a powerful tool, is to hear someone come back, and you don't even need to apologize. Maybe you do, but I've heard people say things like I realized that my tone was sharper than I intended. I realized how I said that wasn't quite the way that I wanted it to come across. Like, I remember two times really recently, my mother, I've done it where I was like, I didn't like how I said that. I wish I had said that better, I'm sorry. And a friend of mine that I was speaking to about a situation that I think came out across really judgmental, but it was mostly trying to come from a place of curiosity to change. But it sounded judgmental, so I had to go back and apologize and say, like, I feel like that might have come across really judgmental, and that's not what I meant it to be. I meant it to be, like, trying to get to the deeper-rooted issue and the curiosity of, like, fixing the problem. And it felt… insensitive. Owning that, and then how people receive it is not on you. Like, you've done your part. So, that's the maturity, and that's the regulating repair. You could also say things like, I want you to know that I'm here for you, I want you to come to me, and my goal is not to overwhelm you. So, if and when I am overwhelming you, I want you to come and tell me. Like, you have to give people permission to come to you. We think that's a given, they just will. Like, it's their responsibility to come, but not really. It's your responsibility to open the door. Some people aren't comfortable knocking on the door. They need the invitation. And open the door. if I feel like… I can't reset in the moment, or they can't reset in the moment, then I'll say, like, let's pause the conversation. We'll come back to it. Let's table this and come back, it's not a big deal, we don't need to do this right now. We'll come back. I just want to meet people with so much grace and compassion. So much grace and compassion. But also, move them into growth orientation, too. Not just let them sit in the compassion and let them where they're at. I want them to grow gracefully. So ultimately, when we say some of these things, or do some of these things that are this repair-based work, we're signaling to them that there is trust, there's rapport, there's relational safety, and that tells the threat detection system, because of social rejection, or the lack thereof, when you're doing this it tells the threat… detection, it tells the nervous system, like, you can come down, like, you can come down to that heightened state, it's okay. And it does so almost instantly. Like, there is just something about co-regulation, and regulating yourself, and coming back and apologizing, and owning your mistakes, that people just immediately regulate with you and soften. Like, how could you be upset with someone who's like. That wasn't my best, I'm sorry. Sometimes people will be like, and I don't care, like, I hate you. And that's okay, that's their work to do, it's no longer yours. But you need to do your work. And that will make massive diff… massive differences in the organization as a whole, if you're leading it.

Lauren Spielmyer: Okay, think about one feedback conversation that you are going to have, that you did have. What in that conversation feels most supportive for you as we walk through this. Like, all these things that we went through today. Like, if you were to pull one of those things out, What could you pull in that would feel really supportive, or that you think would feel supportive for the receiving person? Or, you know, what can you do that would maybe help to regulate? What can you do to regulate yourself? How can you co-regulate? What would help you to feel supported? Like, what can you do? What can you do for them? And then I'm gonna ask you to ask yourself, Does your feedback system, do your feedback tools create fear or clarity? Do they create control and micromanagement, or connection? Because depending on which side of the spectrum they fall, it's gonna drive your organization into a place of, like, I love being here, I am regulated, I produce well, I'm gonna show up for work, I'm gonna grow the mission. Or, it's gonna send people into I don't want to get out of bed, I don't want to come to work, this feels like a toxic place, I can't wait until I can find another job. Like, this… I don't care about what we're doing. Even if they do, in their heart, care about the mission, they'll stop caring, because they don't feel cared for.

Lauren Spigelmyer: Okay, that is feedback in a nutshell. There's, of course, more to talk about around feedback, but we don't give you all of our secrets, that's what our coaching is for, that's what our programming is for, so… if you want to learn more about our staff sustainability program, we work a lot with schools, nonprofits, medical, police. Really any organization who needs to help to sustain their staff. And it's not just, like, we often talk a lot about turnover. We're like, okay, we'll help you reduce turnover, because we will and it does. But also, you could have staff that you know aren't gonna turn over, or your turnover is low, but staff are still really burnt out, and staff sustainability will help your frontline staff and help your leadership together, cohesively, address both plus so many more things. And all of that will save you a ton of money, because you won't have to keep hiring people, and dealing with the burnout, and dealing with toxicity, and dealing with the stress, because we will alleviate that. We will bring you out of a survival state as individuals, and as an organization as a whole. Okay, if you want to learn more about that program, you’ll love this program, you just go to FiveIves.com, F-I-V-E-I-V-E-S, and go to our services page, and the very first thing that comes up is the Staff Sustainability System. If you are in education, and you want to learn more about burnout prevention, and specifically, like, challenging behavior, how to respond to behavior, how to preserve yourself as an educator, not leave the field. We have a program called the Behavior Breakthrough Program. It's a course that runs every semester in partnership with University of Pennsylvania, 4.5 graduate-level credits. Anyone can sign up for it. It's a hybrid course, a little bit of coaching, live, a little bit of… asynchronous online work and really applicable, actionable things you can do and take. When people take this course, they love it, because they feel like they can apply the things in the classroom right away, and it's one of the few courses that actually explains the science behind behavior, and then gives them true, honest, easy, implementable, actionable steps to take immediately. When you leave here today, don't forget to reflect on the prompts, reflect on the feedback you received, the feedback that you give, your feedback loops, the things that you're using for your loops, and think about where can I make some shifts here? Talk to colleagues, coworkers, superiors, Whoever. Share the data with them. That's what really brings change. Until next episode, I am Lauren Spigelmyer, and thank you for joining me.


Categories: : Regulation Strategies

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