Reset: Moving from Relief to Real Transformation

Twitter

Lauren explores how organizations can reset after burnout by addressing root causes, rebuilding trust, and creating lasting cultural change.

In this episode, Lauren explores what it means for organizations to truly reset after burnout. She shares how leaders and teams can move from short-term fixes to lasting change by addressing root causes, rebuilding trust, and fostering compassion-driven accountability. Through small, consistent practices and reflective leadership, Lauren shows how organizations can build cultures that support well-being, connection, and sustainable growth.

Sign up for the University of Pennsylvania Behavior Breakthrough Accredited Course

Learn about the Staff Sustainability System a proven system to reduce burnout at the root

Resources

Jim Kwik's Website

Other related resources from Five Ives:

Blog Post:

Podcast:

Our Online Programs:

Subscribe to our mailing list and find out more about Stress, Trauma, Behavior and the Brain!

If you’re looking for support as you grow your organization’s capacity for caring for staff and the community, we would love to be part of that journey.
Schedule a free discovery call and let us be your guide

As an Amazon Associate, I earn from qualifying purchases.

---

Transcript:

Lauren Spigelmyer: Okay y'all, we're back for this series within a series. So, we're talking a lot in last couple of weeks about sustaining staff and Jessica and I at the Five Ives created this amazing program, dare I humbly brag, called the Staff Sustainability System. So, one thing we were noticing is that all the individuals, all the organizations, all the... arenas we are working in, like staff are just burning out left and right, even if it's like burnout and they're staying the job or it's burnout and they're turning over and leaving the job or leaving the field completely. And we're seeing it in every department we serve. So we're like, okay, let's take our leadership programming and our frontline staff programming and let's adapt it a bit to base it on, you know, what neuroscience says, what biology says, what nervous system says, which we always have done, but really, like, focus on integrating those things systemically, culturally, individually. Leadership, frontline staff, all staff, and create a loop of practices, micro practices that reset everything to help staff sustain themselves and to help the organization sustain itself. So one of the things that we're walking through in this like series within the series is the three Rs, technically four Rs, but there's like three phases basically to this program. Last, episode we talked about the kind of relief phase or Relieve as we call it. Phase two is Reset. Phase three is Reinforce. And the fourth step, which is really just more of an outcome is Retention. Though we are going to do an episode on retention, but we talked through relief work and what to do when your organization and your staff are in survival mode. And it's just putting out fires every day all the time and dealing with extreme and regular and frequent staff turnover. So today we're going to move more into the reset side of things. In the next episode we will move into reinforcement. So, what we are essentially after today is this, we're going to dig into root causes of burnout by talking about these core concepts that drive that, like moral injury, if you've never heard of that, I'll explain what it is. Secondary traumatic stress or secondary trauma. There's a lot of trust breakdown. There's a lot of control-based actions from leadership down, and that leads to trust break, but also leads to this tension in staff where they just don't feel like they are trusted and they don't necessarily feel psychologically safe. And we're going to talk about moving from that to what are some practices that we can adopt for supervisory support. How can we hold people accountable, but do so from like a trauma invested, but really just compassion based lens? So, what you need to know is that when we are in the relief phase, relieving pressure only works if you also address what's fueling the pressure. I talk about this a lot in all the work we do, like whether it's education and dealing with behavior or police and dealing with burnout or even like PTSD, like what's under all of this? Yes, we can put a band-aid on and then pseudo-solve the problem or temporarily solve it, but like what's really driving all these things? If you want to change your organizational culture and you want people to stay and you want people to be happy at work and you want them to come energized and be motivated and be productive, We get to the root of what is making them feel stressed out, burnt out, and some of it's personal life and things you can't control, but a lot of it is inter-organizationally. So, once we move through that relief phase where we relieve some of those big issues, we move into a little bit more of stabilization and we do that through resetting.

Lauren Spigelmyer: So, we go deeper now that we're a bit more regulated as a whole, collective whole, we surface patterns that maybe we couldn't see when we were in that survival and crisis state. and we begin to completely rewire the culture, this time based on resilience and responding to stress in a different way that builds us and grows us instead of depletes us and burns us out. So, we are going to create some breathing room here. And that way staff and leaders can catch their breath because everyone kind of feels, like, exhausted and out of breath at this point. And... do so in a way that is sustainable, that doesn't feel like a huge shift, little micro-practices. And that way we can get to a place of like cruise and coast in a uh positive way that's not feeling like being driven by overwhelm and ending up ultimately in survival or crisis state again. So why does this matter? Why does this particular stage matter? Why are we focused on resetting? We've already relieved the pressure and the issue is solved. Not really, because again, we didn't get to the root cause. So, if you don't get to root cause, it's very, very likely, like, so just to go down as high, that the problem will either resurface the way it was or will kind of re-manifest itself another way. So, getting to the root cause of it is important, but you can't get to the root cause if you can't get your brain and body in a place of problem solving and creativity and rationality and logical functioning, which you cannot do when you are in survival state, which is why reset must come first and then relieve in the stage of, or which is why, strike that, reverse it, which is why we must relieve the survival state first, get everyone to a little bit closer to equilibrium, then we work on reset. You cannot reset until you relieve some of that pressure, but relief of the pressure isn't the answer. It's just the first stage instead, the first phase. Why also does this matter? Because you're going to get a lot of moral injury and that term is coming up more and more and more. I'm going to say love the term, but definition of it is accurate. You could get a lot of trust lost. If people don't feel like they are trusted or they cannot trust those guidance, it is eventually going to lead them to burnout or to leave the job because you just cannot simultaneously be happy in a place that you don't feel trusted or feel like you could trust. And then you've got the systemic stress. And what ultimately happens then is people just learn to accept that this is just the way it is. And maybe some of that is true, but probably not all of it. There's probably quite a few shifts that could be made that this doesn't have to be the way that it is. So, the most important thing here to note, though, is when we are moving through this secondary phase, it's not about blaming anyone. It's not really anyone's fault. We don't know what we don't know. This program is meant to bring people into awareness and then give them solutions for what to do after they've stepped into awareness. So, it's about curiosity. It's about humility, it's about shared learning, it's about collaborating, it's about owning mistakes. So, you have to be in a state, again, that's not survival, be in a state of curiosity and the ability to access humility, and that comes from being in a more regulated state. So, you have to relieve that pressure first to be able even to access these parts to solve these problems. That's really the problem with a lot of programs is they come in wanting to do good things, consultants, coaching programs. but they're all working from a place of, like, planning for the future or making shifts. You can't do that first. You have to get people and organizations out of crisis state first because they do not have the capacity to plan for the future until they get out of that state first. So, if you want to learn more about that, talked about it a little bit in the last episode, we go into it more in the program.

Lauren Spigelmyer: Okay, so let's talk a little bit about moral injury and then also simultaneously resilience. And you might've heard the term reflective supervision. So, we'll talk a little bit about that. I really love trauma-informed accountability. I would even like take the word trauma-informed out and just like compassion-driven accountability, like compassion for human beings. We are all humans, we're all gonna mess up, we're all stress-free. We do want to do better. Like that is innately in our system. So how can we get there? Trust indicators and culture diagnostics. So, let's break each one of these down here for you. Moral injury and resilience. how staff and leaders carry internal conflict when values are compromised. So, you might have organizational values that are possibly being compromised. Your organization may not have values and that's not a problem in and of itself because your values drive pretty much all your decision-making, but it's really good to have employees know their own personal core. And when you're in an organization where you know your personal core values and they can values, probably not a good fit for you. If you're in an organization where your value might be in alignment, how you're being led is conflicting with your values or how you're being asked to do something is conflicting with your values. You didn't have that conversation and get to a place that feels more values aligned, or again, it might not be the right fit. And there are times when that's going to come up. There's times when I have definitely experienced that, where I'm asked to do things that I know aren't helpful and aren't right. So, I have to decide, do I advocate for change here and push back, or do I walk away from this, this job? Here's the, like, if I had the capacity to advocate for change, that's ultimately what I want to do because otherwise I leave it nothing changes and someone else comes in and they repeat the same potential problem here. So, kind of being able to name a moral injury, which is when the conflicting values come into play, and being able to bring that to light without feeling like you're going to be fired or you're be punished or someone's going to, there's going be repercussions of that share. It's just a psychologically safe enough place to be able to share things like that. And if you can, if you do, if you can work through things like that, you build resilience and stress eases. Conflict eases. A lot of things, actually. Okay, reflective supervision. It's a term that again, not new and some people may have certain types of feelings about it. But when I think about it, it is what it says it is. I mean, you're supervising someone and you're being reflective in your supervision. One of the things that I really believe as a leader and as someone who, like, leads my home and when I'm around leaders, like the man that leads my home, family systems, work systems, any type of system where someone is leading. I think it is really helpful to be regularly reflecting on how you were doing because you might not know that there are patterns in place that you need to break or that are harmful or hurtful. And, also, when someone under me isn't doing well, I view that as like almost like a shepherd to the sheep. Like it is my job and it is my role and it is my value to help. try and lift that person up. If they're not a good fit for the organization, maybe that's another conversation you'll need to deal with that. But if they are an aligned fit and they're a good human doing good work and they're not doing well, that's a reflection of how I am leading. And it might be a reflection of how I might need to make some shifts to lead a bit better. And I don't need to take that personally. I can just own it and move into problem solving and solve it. But I can't do so if I'm stuck in a crisis state. Okay, so the biggest thing with reflective supervision too is so much of supervisory things become managing and supervising tasks versus like managing people. Like if we hire someone to do tasks, it's likely that they can do the task successfully without our support. I think guidance the first time or two through until they are onboarded and learn it. But we don't need to micromanage and oversee every little detail because if we do that, we're saying, don't trust you. And they feel that whether it's conscious or subconscious. So, we are supervising in a way that supports processing, supports growth, supports learning, and supports emotional safety, and builds trust, and gives them a place to come to if they have a moral injury, or don't understand the task, or need to share thoughts, or even have creative ideas of how to do things better. Because just because someone is in leadership doesn't mean that they have the only ideas and the best ideas. Sometimes people that are in the front lines have really good ideas because they're living it.

Lauren Spigelmyer: Okay, let's talk about trauma-informed accountability. Again, I really feel like this is that are worded as like compassion informed accountability. And people like compassion, think, because in a lot of these organizations that we serve, compassion feels too soft. And these service-based organizations have hard work and traumatic work and compassion feels like I'm letting down my guard and being vulnerable. But it's only then that you can move through the healing and move through the things to get to a place where you can actually like function on the backend as a human being. Otherwise, you're just carrying all that weight around with you, that's psychological heavy. So, trauma-informed accountability, compassionate-informed accountability really just means accountability without blaming or shaming and without doing blaming-based and shameful-based things to an individual. So, basically, we're holding high standards, but we're also preserving safety in a voice. So, you're creating an environment and a relationship with those beneath us and above us that We are saying like, want you to be able to come to me and share when something is not right, when you have ideas, when I can do better. I want this to be a place where we can all learn from one another. And I think sometimes when we are in leadership positions, that feels, again, too vulnerable. Like, I'm giving up too much freedom, I'm giving up too much reign, I'm giving up too much control. So, instead we do the opposite. We wanna be perfect in our roles. We don't wanna be blamed for anything. So, then we try and control everything. And that again, leads to moral injury, distrust. all the things. So, when you can hold people accountable and basically say like, that wasn't good, and I want to support you through it. So, let's work on this together. It's a very different conversation than like, wow, you really messed up. And then just laying them to hang there. So, we talked more about that program and really go through these awesome like scenario based like what does it look like to meet someone with accountability, but also this compassion and growth-based step forward. Trust indicators. Oh man. I think sometimes we just don't know that there's a lot of distrust in the organization because it's not a safe enough place to come say that that's how we feel because then we're basically saying to someone above us like you're not doing your job right. I mean not directly but kind of or doing your job in a way that's supporting me maybe not right or wrong just in a way that feels you healthy support but there are ways that we could do this. with it being more anonymous, like feedback loops, feedback surveys, even like a qualitative pulse check to see where trust is and where stress is accumulating. So, I feel really passionately, strongly about leaders pretty frequently and regularly, like, asking those that are working above and beneath how they can do better. Like, and that's probably because I'm at One of my core values, personal core values is growth oriented. Like I'm always learning, I'm always reading a book, I always want to do better. And people tell me that I've done something wrong or I've hurt them and moved through the feelings I'm feeling because of that. And I am a very people pleasing based person, though I'm not a people pleaser anymore. But I take that very seriously and I ask them how I can do better. And I try and learn, I think about, okay, based on how they want to be supported or how they would like me to do better or their suggestions. Like, I integrate that into like who I am? Is it in alignment with my own personality, my values? And, you know, where can I improve here? But I don't know that if I don't ask or if I'm not open to hearing feedback. So, when friends, family, people I'm working with and supporting come to me and say something like that, my first action is not a lot of defense at all, like, I hear you. I hear it and I want to do better so, tell me what you're thinking. I also encourage those around me to like, you're going to bring a problem to the table, bring a solution to. Like, if I come to you with a problem, I'm going to have some solutions that I thought about because I'm not just going to come drop this problem in your lap and not have any ideas how to fix it. So, I set that expectation as well.

Lauren Spigelmyer: Cultural diagnoses. What systems? What policies? Even, like, how your physical space is designed. How are these things unintentionally worsening stress? I know that sounds kind of crazy. The last one, like, the way the offices is designed, the way the spaces are designed can unintentionally worsen stress. Yeah, actually we do a whole series on it. There's a lot of things, there are a lot of things that you can do to change your physical space to make it conducive for regulation and regulating more and reducing stress. But even like your systems that you have in place, your work systems, your policies, your expectations, all of those things that are part of your culture, like lack of downtime always having to respond to email with like in minutes, no debriefing space. All of those things lead to disruptive culture. So, how can we put these little micro practices in place that are sustainable and help people feel supported so that they can do their job well?

Lauren Spigelmyer: Okay, Practices and interventions in this reset phase. The biggest thing that we do at Five Ives is we've noticed that programming does not work. Learning does not work when we take it in big doses or big chunks because too much too fast doesn't last. Jim Quick said that. And we just are in a space in society where we don't have a lot of mental capacity left, like throughout our job, throughout our day. Some do, some don't, but most have less. So, what's working best right now for our brains and our over-stimulation is realistic shifts, small shifts, easy to implement, things that are like micro doses that begin shifting the norms and as a result of little tiny micro adoptions of these things, start changing the entire culture. I mean, you can feel some of them pretty quickly. Just one practice alone can just lift the heavy that an organization is dealing with. So, what are some things? I'm gonna give you a couple of examples here, not going into a whole lot of detail, because we go into the detail in program, but just gonna give you some ideas. I really like team learning, shared reflection sessions, but I also really like hearing from the team what they want to learn. So, when we work with organizations, we pull the staff and learn from them, hear from them, like even not even just their leadership, like the staff, like if it's frontline staff, what were your set points? Like, what do you wanna learn? And make sure that what we're doing you know, tries to hit on some of those things and little adaptations to make sure that what we're suggesting is aligned to what they're actually needing. Even, like, learning doesn't have to be like professional development learning. It could just be learning sessions where we resolve some of the issues that we're dealing with internally or within teams or uh just identifying collective stressors, like coming into meetings with, like, a guiding question or a topic where we just collectively work through solutions, whether it's like a work-based problem or like an internal based problem. I would say definitely consider redesigning supervision. Like, what does that look like? Usually the supervisory, like feedbacks, observations, reflective questionings, the things that we do to make sure employees are functioning well, I feel like are not great. Usually we don't carve out regular time or a lot of time and it doesn't need to be a lot of time. It can be regular, but small doses. And that's better than none at all. Then even probably better than one large chunk. But I think one of the biggest things is asking stronger questions and asking questions that a line to them being a human being and not solely an only work base. So obviously a supervision redesign, how you're meeting, how frequently you're meeting and what those meetings look like is a good place to start. So, you've got shared learning supervision redesign. I think considering boundaries, expectation, pacing. Sometimes the load is too much and one stuff maybe don't feel like they can come to you and say that, how can we, let's say lighten the load, because we're not able to do that, but how can we co-design how they tackle their load or how they handle their load or create buffer zones or encouraging staff to say no or not at this time or I can't right now and that being okay and knowing that that has to go somewhere else, we either ask somewhere else or take it on ourselves or we delegate it out, source it somewhere else, but giving staff permission to do so because if not we burn them out. So, is it worth giving it to them if they're going to end up quitting because we've piled on too much? Definitely we talked about this a little bit earlier. Pathways for feedback, but safe pathways. So, asking for pathways, a feedback that, or like not on a group session where like someone has to out the leader in front of the group or not many people that would do that, some probably would, anonymous prompts, anonymous surveys, anonymous feedback, listening spaces for staffs to have a staff, staffs. staff people to have a voice, a truly heard voice where like the information is documented, taken into consideration and we actually maybe, not maybe eventually organize, do something with the data that's collected. But sometimes people just need to be all heard like that alone is all that's needed.

Lauren Spigelmyer: Okay, let's talk briefly about what might block or get in the way of this, and then we're gonna go into what's coming next. if you feel like, and we can see this pretty quickly when we walk into organizations, if you feel like there's resistance, if you feel like there's a lot of shame, if you feel like people are overloaded, if you feel like people are calling off of work frequently or regularly, because there's this... uh feeling of burnout or almost like destabilization or just extreme overwhelm. A lot of those things are gonna get in the way of resetting. That's why we do the relief phase first. So hopefully the relief phase will deal with some of those things, but a lot of those things come from maybe like cultural practices or systems that already exist. So, it's in this reset phase that we address some of these things and try and get to the root. of them and how really solve them from the root. So, people, yes, they do want to be heard. And sometimes hearing someone and their concern of their needs eases the burden a little bit, but it doesn't solve the problem. So, you need more than just the conversation. There needs to be action taken after it. So, making sure that the conversations that are the space that we create where we hear people are actually action oriented. Other things I could block is like a leader not feeling comfortable getting sensitive feedback, whether anonymous or not, or not creating a space of psychological safety because of their own fear of being blamed or loss of control or exposure of like not doing well or dysfunction or just them not doing their job to the ability or level that they desire. So, they I meant the wrong doing and there's a lot of pride in that there's a lot of ego behind that and not all of it is conscious. Honestly we all want to do well it's in our biology to do that but sometimes we get in our own way. There's definitely sometimes this inertia of, like, this is just the way it is. This is the culture of this organization. Like, organizations will literally talk about that in a positive way about some organizations. Like, I've heard people talk about organizations that they work for, they've seen, or they've been in. And they're like, this is what the cultural inertia is here. And it's awesome. And then I've heard people describe like, quite the opposite. We don't want like, this is how it's always been. This is how it's always done. I feel like the... The legal system is a good example of this, the culture and inertia of the legal system, whether it's like divorce court, family court, criminal court, uh criminal court, feel like is slightly more clear cut, but. The cultural inertia of those spaces is so bad because it's so antiquated, it's so outdated. So, people will literally say like, this is how it's always been done. This is how we do it over technicalities and formalities. And it's like, that actually doesn't even make sense. Actually, it's a waste of everyone's time. That's a waste of money. That's a waste of... But we have to consider that. Like we have to really start to figure out how to disrupt these things. They're not helping anyone. Sometimes when we don't relieve well, do the relief work well, phase one well, or we don't sustain it after we've gotten through it, then when we hit reset and we start to do the reset work, we fall back into that survival state, that crisis state. And there'll be times where it's like a continuum. It's not like once you get out of it, you never go back. There will be things that happen, like things could happen to someone specifically in leadership. Like for example, I've been right a leader who was diagnosed with cancer and that really put us back and that's obviously no one's fault, but no one can control that either. So, there'll be times where you fall out of your upper Rs and down into your survival chaos state again, crisis state again, and it's gonna be completely out of your control or completely out of the organization's control. So, knowing that once you fall back, that you know how to move out of the relief work and do the relief work, move out of it back into reset and know that that... falling back into relief is not necessarily a bad thing, especially now, because you know how to build out of relief back into reset and then can move into reinforce. Speaking of reinforce, let's transition there. OK, so we need reset to kind of like get to the patterns. What's the root cause? Reset is such an important state and phase that most people want to skip. because they feel the goodness that comes from relief and like, feels better, we're good, and we're not good. We haven't solved the patterns and the problems yet. That's what we do in reset. But once we have identified those problems and patterns, we need to actually reinforce the new micro practices or the changes or the new behaviors so that, ready for it? So that the system is sustainable, Staff Sustainability System. You can see why we named it what we named it.

Lauren Spigelmyer: Okay, so, Reset starts us in this pathway of like muscle memory and the reinforce phase, the last phase is what really solidifies that muscle memory. I always talk about this reference of like when you're changing neural pathways in the brain, when you're things about yourself, ways of being, cultural patterns, things that existed from childhood, the way you lead, the way you've been led, you, it's like you've been driving a truck down a dirt road for years and years and years and the pathway is all worn away. The only way to create a new pathway, because every time you try and get off that pathway, it's going to pull you back in because there are like ruts in the road from where you've been driving all those years. If you want to create a new driveway, a new pathway, because it's going to keep pulling you back over, you got to be consciously aware. So, you've got to be able to get out of the relief work into reset. And then you've got to consciously choose to continue to drive on the new pathway, long enough that that becomes the new pathway that is no longer pulls you into the old pathway. That's how neural networking works. You have these patterns that are subconscious, subconscious, but you're trying to break them and form new ones. Well, that takes a lot of reinforcement because you're literally reconditioning your brain. without this reset phase where you really become aware of the patterns, trying to jump into or move into reinforcement too soon really becomes almost like performative, like not taken seriously because we didn't get to the root. We're just, we're just looking for quick fixes. And that's what a lot of people offer. And that's what a lot of organizations experience is things that are not sustainable because they jumped to reinforce these practices too, too fast. They haven't really gotten to the root. So, in that phase, we will really pull in that fear support. We'll talk about reflective and evolving leadership. We will create accountability systems and we will kind of habitualize and reinforce that new patterning and the new memory systems so that things become automatic and we don't have to think about them so much.

Lauren Spigelmyer: All right, here's your application reflection for this session. One, I encourage you all to start journaling. I kind of hate it, but I also love it. I hate it because it slows me down. I feel like I don't have time for it because my life moves so fast. the ironic thing about it is I need it more because of that. And I know it feels like a little bit more of a feminine-based practice because it maybe is. But man, when you get thoughts out of your head and on paper, psychologically, there are things just moving through you where solutions are more likely to come. Like if it just sits in your head and you don't get it out and the act of like writing it out physically is just so beneficial. It's more likely that your brain is going to move in the solutions directed orientation. Like, it's gonna move in that direction. So, you pull it out of your brain, can do like a physical release of it and then you see on the paper and then it becomes a little bit easier to actually remove some of the emotion from it where you can actually go up a solution. I would encourage you to journal for this particular episode. would say like, where in my organization do I feel disconnect between maybe how we say we care and how we act. And that can be me as an individual front line staff, that can be me as a leader, could be anybody at any level. How and where in my organization do I feel like there's a disconnect between how we say we care and how we actually act, especially when things get really stressful, shoot like stressful seasons of work. If you are in a position of leadership, I would ask yourself like what's one leadership or supervision question I can add that really helps staff to kind of surface up that stress or any moral conflict. How can I create a space that is safe enough and ask them a question or questions that really give them the permission to come share this so we can actually move through it so as to keep getting in the way. And I would say even at your next like a team meeting or gathering virtual in person, whatever, Introduce some type of cultural check. Like, what's draining me that we haven't talked about? What's feeling hard right now? What's feeling heavy? And give a couple minutes, like even just like three minutes and put some parameters around it, put boundaries around it. And say, we're talking about this, we're not going to solve these problems. I just want to hear from you all what's holding you back right now. And in doing so, we'll write these things down and we'll come back and revisit them. I will not forget because I remember hearing is not enough. I have to take action, but... I don't need to solve it right then and right there. I do need to hear it so I can start to think about how to solve it and then invite them to a conversation to collectively and collaboratively solve it. Okay. If you want to learn more about this staff sustainability program, any phase of it, because you can do, you can spread it across time so that it doesn't feel like too much too fast. And we have recommendations for timelines for implementing it, but all of it is on our website, fiveives.com. If you go to fiveives.com, and you go to the services page, Staff Sustainability System is the first link that comes up on that page. So, hop over there and learn more about it. Send it to anyone you think needs to be your supervisor passively. Have someone else send it. No, just have the conversation. Don't do it passively. That's not nice. Just send them that. Just schedule a conversation and talk about it with them. There's also the opportunity in a couple of weeks here, we're midway through hosting a course with University of Pennsylvania called Behavior Breakthrough that is for educators where they can earn graduate level credit from, from Penn, 4.5 credits actually. And we are gonna start a new cohort in January. So, if you know anyone that is looking for support around the behavior and burnout from the educational sector, Behavior Breakthrough can be a really great resource for them and it is primarily um virtual some online coaching. So again, we're gonna run that in January. is fiveives, F-I-V-E-I-V-E-S.com backslash courses, backslash behavior hyphen breakthrough hypen pen and that's online as well. So okay, that was a lot to move through that feels like it needs to be like, like ongoing conversations more I like there are questions there should be questions that come up when you all listen to this so feel free to send us your questions. My email is lauren at Jessica's is Jessica at Fiveives.com, but I encourage you to kind of sit with this, reflect on it, move through it, share it, and actually take action and do something with it. Even like an action, like sharing it with somebody else, like sharing the podcast episode with somebody that you can talk through thoughts with. So until next episode, I'm Lauren Spigelmyer and thank you for joining us.


Categories: : Regulation Strategies

© 2025 Five Ives