Understanding Burnout & Turnover in Trauma-Impacted Organizations

Twitter

Lauren explores staff sustainability and shares nervous-system strategies to reframe burnout and build resilient cultures.

In this episode, Lauren launches a new series on staff sustainability and explores the hidden costs of burnout and turnover in trauma-impacted organizations. She shares why quick fixes like pizza parties or gift cards fall flat and how deeper systemic change is needed.

Through the lens of the nervous system, Lauren reframes burnout as a collective issue rather than an individual failing. She explains how creating cultures of belonging, safety, and regulation can shift organizations from survival toward thriving.

Sign up for the University of Pennsylvania Behavior Breakthrough Accredited Course

Learn about the Staff Sustainability System a proven system to reduce burnout at the root

Other related resources from Five Ives:

Blog Post:

Podcast:

Our Online Programs:

Subscribe to our mailing list and find out more about Stress, Trauma, Behavior and the Brain!

If you’re looking for support as you grow your organization’s capacity for caring for staff and the community, we would love to be part of that journey.
Schedule a free discovery call and let us be your guide

As an Amazon Associate, I earn from qualifying purchases.

---

Transcript:


Lauren Spigelmyer: Okay, we are starting a new series on staff sustainability. Jessica and I just took a program that we have been utilizing with different organizations and had great success with kind of ramped it up and created an altered more intense program, but a little bit longer and a little bit more like wraparound support. We've always worked with frontline staff to prevent them from burning out and from to help the leadership work on doing things to retain staff. But this is way more encompassing. There's a couple, like all staff, whole organization sessions. There are a lot of leadership sessions. There are a handful of frontline staff sessions, but it of gets everybody on the same page together for a little bit longer of a period of time so that the work and the intentions and the application are more sustainable. So basically we're going from burnout to a sense of belonging. And I love that because I talk about this like, so many of our podcast episodes where it's like human nature, like biology to feel this sense of belonging and when you don't feel the sense of belonging, that's what often leads to burnout and a couple other things too. And we'll talk about those, but basically, we're to talk about how to understand burnout and turnover in, especially in organizations that are highly trauma impacted. So, organizations that have a lot of chronic stress or traumatic stress. So, right now that's... that's many organizations, mean, even education, you have a lot of extreme chronic stressors and medical and law enforcement and insert even corporate America. I mean, there's, there's, there's so many, this applies to everyone to be honest, but we're definitely focusing on trying to reach some, heavily trauma-impaired organizations or some chronically stressed organizations that have super high burnout. So, we're going to cover topics like what are the root causes and, like, what is this? Have you ever heard of this concept of, like, moral injury and secondary traumatic stress and how do those things impact the retention of staff and why these programs that offer these more like surface level fixes like employee wellness, why they don't work, why they're failing? So, it's why Jessica has this conversation a lot and we're, she's not a big fan of the words healthcare and neither am I. So, you think about, like, organizations are like, yeah, well, I like a faculty or staff or organization like pizza party, like, Friday, Friday happy hour or you're gonna throw up some of these self care posters or in, like, buy you a gift card for your birthday or whatever. But they will fall flat. Those little tiny things will fall flat. Not that they're options to help improve morale and sustainability, but when your staff are drowning, you're gonna need a little bit more than that. So, burnout isn't really like a moral issue. It's, people will call it a company culture, turnovers, not even a company culture issue. It's a nervous system issue. Like individuals have their nervous systems and those are being negatively impacted. Jessica and I built a system to kind of identify, identify, identify organizationally where the organization is on like a nervous system level from like survival to thriving. So, we'll talk about that too. So we're going to kind of run through here, like the real cost of burnout, burnout versus secondary and traumatic stress, why the surface level fixes utterly fail, why the nervous system or how the nervous system plays into all of this, which kind of leads into company culture, but I would replace company culture with even like nervous system culture. And then I'm going to give you a little bit of an invitation.

Lauren Spigelmyer: So, let's jump in here and talk about the real cost of burnout. So, or turnover or retention or whatever word you want to use here, but Jessica and I pulled some really good stats. So, healthcare organization, when you had to replace a physician, one physician, one single physician, it costs upwards of $500,000 when you account for recruitment, onboarding, lost productivity, nurses cost anywhere from 40 to 60K. So those numbers alone are alarming. If you bump to education, you would expect those numbers to be lower because they're paid a bit lower. But even a teacher who leaves costs you around 30K. And that's replacing them, substitutes, lost classroom opportunities. And districts right now are losing dozens of people, not even just teachers, but support staff. And they're burning through hundreds of thousands of dollars in costs that they don't even see are costs. Nonprofits, replacing staff isn't cheap there anywhere. Anywhere. Replacing staff isn't cheap there or anywhere. It is usually about 20 to 30% of an employee's salary. So, that could be for your more frontline role, especially if they're not full time, be anywhere from like eight to 10 to $12,000. It could also be for your directors, any of our managers, like, depending on their salary role, 40, 30, 40 K. maybe as low as 20K, but even 20K is a hit. I mean, if you invest in programming that saves you 20, the program costs 20K, but it's gonna replace or keep one person that the program pays for itself. Police, public safety, law enforcement, these numbers are pretty alarming too. Usually around 125 to 250K to replace one officer and they're hard. Like a lot of these entities are already, like education and public safety, already struggling to get people to come into the field and then you're losing people who are already in the field and there's no one left to hire or you're not able to find someone to hire that aligns or meets the needs or is of the quality you're looking for. So, those are just a few of the numbers for a few different fields. So, it's a little bit alarming.

Lauren Spigelmyer: Okay, also the emotional toll that all of this takes and quitting is it leads to moral injuries. Moral injuries like this sick feeling that you want to be of service to people. And a lot of these organizations we're talking about are like fields are service-based roles. They're providing service. But these people want to show up for families, for students, for community people, whoever it is, but they literally don't have the capacity. The burden, the weight, the exhaustion, the lack of resources, the nervous system, dysregulation, all of it has led to they no longer have the capacity to do their job, even if they genuinely still care and want to. So, this almost like numbed out state, this disconnect, almost like you move into like a disassociative parasympathetic, to put it in the nervous system terms, freeze almost state. And that really wounds your purpose-driven people. And a lot of times what these purpose-driven people will do that could have been amazing employees and retired from the organization end up leaving the field completely. They go into completely, honestly, as someone who works in trauma care, I've thought about it. I'm like, okay, this work is so heavy and there's so much lifting and there's... overwhelming and all the paperwork and the red tape and the lack of justice in areas where there should be justice. And I am like, I think I'd like to just go work in a vineyard. I think I, you know, I took it so far that on the weekends I picked up a part-time job at the vineyard. Or I'm like, I'm gonna go grow herbs on the farm and sell flowers. Like, I have fantasized about what that would be like. Now would I be as happy doing that? Probably not. Cause I'm a very justice driven, I'm a very serving based person. I probably would feel a lack of purpose in some of those places, but I thought about it. And then relational too. So, when you have an organization where like the nervous system state of the organization is poor and one person leaves, trust starts to fracture, especially if they don't leave happily. It's one thing they just, like, took a job that, know, allowed them to elevate or if they leave unhappily, that trust begins to fracture. And then you lose like the shared history that person had with the organization if they were there for a little while you lose the momentum moving forward. I mean, it could be like a quiet, cold quit immediately, boom, and then you're really stunted. And it really also means that when someone leaves like that, it leaves behind even more stress for the rest of the team to absorb. I can think of like two people that shared recently with me that they left jobs, they were really unhappy in their jobs, and they were having conversations with other employees, they were all unhappy. And when this person left, It was like two weeks later and the other person that was there put in their notice as well. And then the other person was planning to leave in like a month. So, three people within like two months had left the organization. That's not, that to me is a clear sign. When people leave that fast, that quickly, that unhappily, something in the whole of this, there's like a hole in the soul, something in the core is very, very, very, very wrong.

Lauren Spigelmyer: So, let's talk a little bit more about like what's burnout, what's... like secondary traumatic stress, how does this come to play in organizations like these? Burnout is just like slow erosion of like your energy and your passion for the work that you do. And that's due to these chronic workplace stressors. Like think, I think like in education or probably like paperwork overload or unclear expectations or micromanagement or leadership constantly like changing decisions or going back on decisions they already made or. Just feeling like a lack of emotional support, or mental health support, nervous system support, or just a lack of support in general. But secondary traumatic stress is a little tiny bit different. You can definitely feel burnt out from secondary traumatic stress. Like it's gonna lead you to burn out faster. But it's almost like the, gosh, like the emotional residue that you then carry, like sticks to you from hearing. or witnessing traumatic events or traumatic stories. So, I experienced this a lot when I worked a lot with early childhood. There were organizations that had kiddos that didn't come from the greatest homes and that had lower socioeconomic statuses, which can lead to and often does lead to a lot of trauma. And it could be when a child discloses something that you then have to report to child and youth and you... are like stuck with that heavy thing they reported to you, which you then acted upon, but then it might separate the family system. And even if does, it's maybe a better thing, but then where does that child go? Do they end up in a foster system or, you know, if they're just tossed around the system and you take it home with you at night and you kind of ruminate on it and you just can't quite let it go. And it's like, it's like sticking to you. So how do you kind of separate yourself from it and remove it and still have like empathy and sympathy and compassion and care when you of carrying the invisible weight of other people's pain. That's ultimately what it is. And both really matter. In some organizations you'll have more exposure to traumatic stress, there'll be a lot more, you know, secondary traumatic stress. So how do we kind of, okay, move through that and take it off? And burnout is, okay, well these little tiny things are leading to longer term like resistance and I'm feeling very exhausted and drained.

Lauren Spigelmyer: So, how do we work at addressing these little tiny things to prevent the burnout and to help people to feel more regulated in their work. Both matter. Surface level fixes, why they're all failing. Like, I feel like, oh gosh, there's just so many initiatives that just fall flat. Donuts, pizza, uh happy hour, gift cards, um employee wellness, like initiatives that just aren't like grounded in complete alignment with the company's values. Like, here's the thing about like culture of an organization. One, when people do like culture overhauls and like mission and vision and values. Most people don't even know those things. Like, when you work for an organization, you might on your onboarding packet like have those things, but like, is that really threaded through every decision that you are making? So, that's the problem. the other like dual problem is like, I really love values. I love organizational values. I love personal values. I love family values. But here's the thing, I'll never pick more than like three or four of them. Because when you get above three or four, definitely above five, people can't remember all of them. I worked for an organization and they redid all of their like cultural stuff and they picked nine core values. I can't tell you which, I can't. tell you one, I can't remember one of those values, because there were so many values and they weren't lived into or leaned into or like used as a filtration system for the entire organization. How do you live into nine different values? So, but if you pick three, max four, I really would push it towards three. It's like, okay, I can remember three things and I can like filter a lot of decisions and company things through those. So, these like service level fixes. They're not just these one-off little happy things. It's like, this is a part of our culture. I remember I literally just had a conversation this weekend with someone. She's like, yeah, there was this financial organization that I visited somewhere across the country and they had this gym and this like lunch room, but like beneath the workspace. And they hired personal trainers. That was a part of the employee package. And the lunch room made food based on the like trainers recommendations for each person. So they had like different like macro, you know, meals, whatever, whatever, they're tracking macros. Don't know really depth of it because I was just hearing her like secondary account of it. But she's like, it was a part of their culture, like part of their time was going to the this lunchroom to have this lunch and to work out with the trainer. And some of that was like embedded throughout the work time during the day. And some of it was before or after. But it was in the building. It's a part of their culture. And I'm just like, here it is like, don't forget to use it. It's like, no, we all do this because this helps all of us stay mentally well and improves our productivity and makes us happier people and makes us healthier people. And I'm like, man, I don't know too many organizations that are doing that. And I get that that's a broad example because that's a large organization that has the funding to do that, but you can do that on smaller scales. So, I also think of like, some other examples, like when leaders kind of offer perks that are like short-term doses of dopamine versus like true deeper change, it's almost like you feel like your leadership is just like dismissing you. Like, well, here's like something to alleviate that. Like, no, what's under it? Like what we want the solve that's underneath the root of the problem. Not just like, okay, well here let's band-aid it for a little bit and then we'll deal with it, it comes back up again. So, really what we need to understand is like complete holistic wellness is not about really like individuals, it's the collective, it's the structural repair. It's where, like, your value in all the decisions you're making, including the ones that involve like your personal lifestyle. And this is a... wellness culture of support all around and our actions or implementations and our leadership and our resources and our wellness, all of it aligns to a a deeper connection and values that we live into and lean into every single day.

Lauren Spigelmyer: Okay, so let's talk a little bit about the nervous system angle of all of this, because I'm talking about all these things and I keep referencing the nervous system, but I know that it has such a significant impact on all of these things. So, it's this stress that keeps any of us and stress can come from like just over-stimulation of like devices, social media, news, TV, politics, God knows whatever is going on in the world. Like stress is here and it's not going away. And it's that stress, whether in like society and personal life and work or all three or even more that really keep us in these nervous system dysregulated states like fight, flight, freeze, fawn, all the things. So, what we recognize is that when you are in this dysregulated state, whether it's like a uh micro level of it or like a macro level of it, decision-making is hard. Thinking logically, rationally, communicating, solving conflict, creativity sinks, emotional regulation slips, people are moody, there's more conflict. Creativity, backseat, uh productivity, backseat, connection, gone. You can feel it when you walk into an organization. I can tell you within seconds like what the the nervous system state of everyone is like if I just walk around a little bit like oh oh okay you can really feel the warmth inside of an organization when there's there's a lot of like nervous system regulation as a whole and as individuals because the whole will impact the individuals so when you don't really view this through a lens of nervous system safety which includes things like Predictable routines, routines before meetings, important stuff and reasoning of meetings, manageable caseloads, relational trust, accountability, clarity, ah micro tasks like paperwork and email and work hours and time off, all of those things get in the way of people really giving their best because people can't sustain in an organization where all of those things are disrupting them on micro levels or macro levels. It doesn't matter if it's micro or it's macro, it's going to eat away at the culture and the regulation of the nervous system in individuals and as a collective whole.

Lauren Spigelmyer: Okay, so. Let's talk just a little bit here about, again, like how the nervous system impacts culture. So, one of the things I see a lot is like just brushing under the rug and like toxic positivity and just practice gratitude and and gratitude is great. It's really great for like shifting your nervous system. But the reality is like, if you don't get to the root issue, not good. And I think we're so sensitive right now as a society and as individuals that we're doing a lot more blaming than taking accountability or even getting curious about behaviors or reactions and then trying to figure out what's under them and solve them together. And what that does is it really deepens harm. So, you've got this like, sweep it under the rug, toxic activity, like everyone's dysregulated and the mood is not good and that results in like blame. And then there's this deep level of like... distrust and harm that's festering under the surface while everyone tries to come and act like they love each other and they're working together and it's all going well and it's going to be sustainable. not. I also want you to hear that. Sometimes we aim to achieve perfection and that's not it either. A nervous system isn't about regulation as a whole or person, it's not about perfection. And it's so easy to go there. Even as an individual, it's like, as soon as I leave my nervous system regulated state, I'm like, ugh, gotta get back, which is the goal. You do wanna get back, but being dysregulated in your nervous system isn't a bad thing. It's actually what helps us build resilience, what helps us to grow, the little stressors that we can recover from, especially in the community of people around us. Those things all are really healthy for us and every system has saved us. We want to be dysregulated at moments so that we can grow. We just don't wanna stay dysregulated and we don't wanna aim for always being regulated and never making a mistake in this perfectionistic influence either. So making more space for the hard truths, the conversations, the shared problem solving, all those things are what's going to build the trust and really. help the nervous system to get a little bit more secure and be more sustainable.

Lauren Spigelmyer: Okay, so again, just to reiterate and restate, staff sustainability, it's not about perfectionism, it's not about doing everything right, it's not about nervous systems always being regulated. It's not also about fixing everything overnight or like making big huge leaps and jumps and just like immediate fast or even like little surface level fixes. It starts with these small. intentional shifts at the policy level, at the practice level, at the leadership level, at the frontline staff level, the people at your serving level. naming it instead of hiding it, bringing it to the table, bringing it to light, building safety, psychological especially, into predictable routines, having honest dialogue that is accountability focused and really clear yet kind, and integrating little practices of micro regulation throughout the day and repair structures. We're to fracture because we're going to fracture, need to how to repair and we need to repair well. All of this builds resilience and it's what shifts an entire organizational whole and what makes better humans and workforce employees as well. So I'm gonna ask you to pause here. Think back to probably last week, cause you're gonna get this episode on Monday or Tuesday and I want you to just jot down one thing from the past week where you felt yourself kind of either like mentally checking out or losing capacity and just write that down and just notice it or just bring it to mind and be able to write it down. Just notice it without judgment and just let that sit there. I don't even want you to think about, like, why. I just want you to bring that into like the front of your brain, your thinking. And then just think about how does everything I just said play into that? Really points of connection. So, all of this leads into this program that Jessica and I created called our like Staff Sustainability Program. So we're preventing burnout and helping people recover from secondary trauma and stress and fixing nervous system culture on a like a micro practice way to have a macro level influence. So if you want to learn more about that, it's on our services tab of our website, fiveives.com. We also just launched our next cohort of Behavior Breakthrough with University Penn in partnership with Penn, where teachers can, really anybody, but teachers typically to sign for anybody that works with kids would be able to go through it, can get 4.5 graduate level credits from University of Pennsylvania and can understand and learn what's really under behavior, what's driving behavior and move through this course in a semester and leave feeling like, wow, I am quite confident in how to respond to people and behaviors, whether it's adults or children. And I also know the things I can do to prevent my own self from burning out from all of the weight of carrying and dealing with and managing these big behaviors that feel incredibly stressful. So, that is also on our website under our services tab. And if you're looking for more support, just reach out, go to the Five Ives website, go to the contact, no contact, Jessica and I will schedule a call with you and see how we can support the work that you're doing, whatever that may be. And don't forget to apply some of these things that you learned right away by sharing this episode with somebody else or having a conversation or I'm of just reflecting and journaling, but. There wasn't necessarily a whole lot of application today because the application is coming. I just wanted to kind of open up this series with getting you all thinking about some of these bigger, broader things. Until next episode, I'm Lauren Spigelmyer and thank you for joining me.


Categories: : Emotional Regulation

© 2025 Five Ives