What Happens When Consequences Backfire

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Why traditional consequences fail and how understanding the nervous system leads to lasting compassionate change.

If you've been questioning why traditional consequences often fail to create meaningful behavior change, this is for you. Lauren walks through the whys of this failure and how traditional consequences may harm relationships and regulation. She unpacks common disciplinary practices and explains how these strategies can backfire when they’re disconnected from emotional support and repair. Instead of punishing behaviors, Lauren encourages us to understand the nervous system and the unmet needs driving those behaviors.

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Transcript:

Lauren Spigelmyer: Back with when consequences backfire. I love talking about consequences and punishment because there's so much to unearth about behavior. But I'll say this, when we issue, whether you're an educator, when it works with kids, a parent, when we issue consequences without connection and without repair work, it's rarely gonna lead to lasting behavior change. I think about in school, still hear this, and I cringe. And I'm so sorry if you're one of these people in health and I can enlighten you a bit here. Like you didn't do X or you did do X, whatever was the behavior was. And now I'm gonna take away your recess or now you can finish that at recess, blah, blah, blah. I'll be really blunt here- hate that. I absolutely hate that as a punishment and a consequence. It's social connection time. Sometimes it can be regulating time for kiddos needing to get energy out. And a lot of times when they're refusing to do something or there's a behavior that comes into play, like there's something under it. It's just always communicating something. And even though we might feel like they have the skillset to complete something, maybe they don't. And maybe we're not looking at, like, the skills under the skills. Like they might have the skill of writing X, but they don't have the skill of staying regulated long enough to write acts. And because of that, they aren't able to actually accomplish this task, or maybe they could last week, but they can't this week because of something that's going on at home that we don't even know about. By punishing them, especially punishing them with like a loss of a, not even just a reward. Recess, I don't feel like it's like a nicety. It's a necessity. It's time outside, it's fresh air. It's usually bilateral movement, walking or running. It's, honestly, it's imperative. Frankly, sometimes I feel like it's more important than actual academic concepts and lessons because if you can't stay regulated, you can't remember the academic stuff anyhow. So, ugh, I’ve probably done it my career. I can't remember the time that I did it. I feel like I loved recess. So, I don't know that I ever did take away anyone's recess, but maybe just by way of everyone else doing it, I might have done it early in my career, but more times than not, it's probably gonna blow up in your faces. And then, you know, that chat is obviously probably upset with you. And then... ruptures the relationship and the bond that you have with them.

Lauren Spigelmyer: And it's not what I want to be clear about. It's like, it's not saying that students just shouldn't have consequences. It's not that they can't take accountability or responsibility for their actions. It's just that when we are implementing a consequence or a punishment or trying to modify the behavior, you need to think about does what I am implementing, what I am doing, does that help teach the child to make a better choice next time? Or is this really a power struggle and matter of control? Like, do we really think that by taking away someone's recess that they're not going to do the next thing because they're going to be so hyper aware of their recess loss from last time that they won't do it next time? Probably not. I know it sounds unfair in some ways, just let them off the hook, but we're not letting them off the hook. We're looking under behaviors to see what's under there so that we can address that need and make sure that they have everything they need to do the thing or not do the thing. And when they don't get it right, having grace and compassion for that and saying like, we're still not there yet, but I'm here to help you. I don't know, like a special kind of educator guilt that happens when we give a consequence and it like ruptures the relationship or there's a really, really poor response or maybe there's not, maybe not for everyone. For me, there is. Kids upset, we feel worse, they feel worse. Has the behavior even changed? No, probably still there.

Lauren Spigelmyer: So, yeah, the problem is we're taught this, like between family systems and educational systems, we're taught like, consequences will stop and fix the behavior. But that's not true because what's under behavior is nervous system and nervous system dysregulation. So when we're dysregulated, these consequences aren't gonna land. And they're even more frustrating when it feels like it's something you can as a child control, and then you're getting punished for something you can't control. I use this analogy a lot, and it's kind of gross, but it's true. When we're talking about behavior and nervous system. Most of these behaviors are subconscious, unconscious, impulsive processing. They're not trying to do these things. Rarely are the behaviors malicious acts. On some occasion it could be, but most times it's not. If that is true, then if it's subconscious processing and the behavior is coming out and they're not truly trying it, they're just trying to get a need met or stay regulated. It's almost like a child who is sick that is throwing up. They can't control if they're gonna throw up or not throw up, they're sick. It just comes out. It's the same with behavior. They can't control their nervous system that well. It's not that developed. Even ours, as adults, is not developed. So, punishing them for something that they're not really truly trying to do is trying to get a need met. They're trying to regulate whatever it is. It's like punishing them for throwing up. It's just not fair and not helpful. So, what else can we do instead?

Lauren Spigelmyer: So, let's talk a little bit about like why. consequences often fail. So, the reality is if a child is behaving a certain way, it's probably because their brain is into or close to a survival mode. So, if we're talking nervous system, if you've all heard me talk about this before, if you go up in the nervous system, it's more like anxiety prone. It's called the sympathetic side. If you go down in the nervous system, it's more like depressive prone and it's called the parasympathetic side. So, either or both of those sides are kind of like survival sides. developed for good reasons. They saved us as a society and human race. When the nervous system is in one of those sides, the brain's not functioning well. The thinking brain parts are turned off. So we can't reason with kiddos and they can't respond well to logic, but it does respond really well emotionally, psychologically to threat. And when we issue consequences, that is a threat, even though it's not seeming like they're like worded as a threat, it is an internal psychological threat. So... Common examples of consequences that would escalate behavior, losing recess, isolation or timeouts. Don't love timeouts. I love breaks away. I love scheduled preventative breaks. I do not care for timeouts. I do think that a period of time away to regroup, to rest, to regulate can help, but only if they know what they're supposed to be doing there and only if they've been taught the tools to use there. I like better co-regulation. Public shaming, I see used a lot. And I'll be honest, I remember like the first year of my teaching career, I'm like, yeah, I did that. I'm not happy about that, but I didn't know what I now know and I will do better today. And I did as well as I could with what I knew back then. Even sticker charts. Not a big fan of sticker charts, not a big fan of behavior charts. I think it's really extrinsically rewarding. I think it's so focused solely on stopping the behavior or starting a behavior. And I think a lot of times what people will like duly misuse them for, like I don't like them to begin with. I'm just being very blunt on this session, like, I don't like this, I don't like this, hope you're not doing this, don't do this. Hopefully this session hits you and you're like, oh man, I do these things. One, take everything with a grain of salt. Just because I say, I think it's what's best based on neuroscience and nervous system and brain education. That doesn't mean it's... The only truth, it doesn't mean that you must and have to and Lauren knows everything. I certainly don't do a lot of research, do a lot of reading, but it doesn't mean I know it all. take this with a grain of salt. And if you're feeling like, wow, I'm feeling like I'm in a shame storm because I'm doing all these things and I didn't know I shouldn't or I didn't even know about any of this, that's okay too, because just like me early in my career, you don't know what you didn't know. You now know something different, something new, so you can change your response, but you didn't know that.

Lauren Spigelmyer: So, give yourself some grace. But what I'll see with sticker charts and behavior charts is like they earn the reward. And then a teacher will take the reward away. Like they misbehave like what? We lose that sticker. Oh, you lose like, oh, hey, don't take away an earned reward. Definitely just don't do that one no matter what. It's just. I just don't like it. It's like let me give you an example. You find an analogy here. This is like going to work and you're getting a bonus for doing some really. good work at work and then the next day you drop the ball somewhere and supervisor's like, give me back half that bonus. Actually, give me back all that bonus. Are you kidding me? That would make you so mad. At least it would make me mad. So just really think about what do these translations to these consequences look like with adults? And although, yes, we're talking about children and these are adults and adults and children and they're different, their nervous systems aren't, their nervous systems are the same. So those kinds of responses and those kinds of consequences are responded to the same, whether it's a child or adult. Oh, man. It's just a lot.

Lauren Spigelmyer: OK, so the goal here is what actually teaches them to do something different. So, let's swap punishment for repair work and let's swap what's really under it. Fear inside of us, we feel out of control if we really are honest with ourselves for reflection and curiosity. In education, we're so focused on like conform, do what I say all the time. And you know what? That's just not realistic. That's just not human behavior. There are so many nuances of stress and trauma, but neurodiversity and cultural backgrounds and just so many things that get in the way of that. Even if the goal is conforming, it's not 100 % of the time we can't, we're human beings. So having grace for the space where it's not. Instead... not instead, teach what you want them to do or how you want them to respond to the missing skills they have or the unmet needs that are actually driving the behavior instead of using consequences which are actually threats. There could be repair work done. So, like you might issue a consequence or respond to poor way. And you're like, I actually don't like that. Or I wish I hadn't done that. Go back and do the repair work with them or have them go do the repair work with a peer. Model it, guide them. Maybe a quick reflection on your own, maybe a quick reflection with them, depending on age group and just asking them a question like “What was going on for you.” “Is there anything that you would like to try differently next time?” “Is there a way that you could help me come up with some ideas for how to do it differently next time?” “What would work for you?” And then end with this reconnection of like, I still care about you. I'm still glad you're in my classroom or I'll still love you. I'm so glad you're my child. I will keep you safe and I'll give everyone else in here safe too. You might say, I know that was hard, but I'm still glad you're here. I'm still glad to have you in my, in our classroom, whatever it is, it looks like for you, but what does it look like to initiate with repair or guide them to repair, reflect and come up with a solution and then like reconnect with like, I just want to let you know that. I'm still here. I'm so glad to have you.

Lauren Spigelmyer: So, yes, that is a frame that I would probably follow is just really getting curious about what's driving the behavior and making sure that I'm reconnecting and doing repair work so that whatever, even if I am issuing consequence or a punishment that they still know I care about them. What about potential consequences that actually work? Like natural consequences that I don't think are threats and punishments. just like naturally what happened when something happens. So, they're natural, logical consequences that actually do have a place. Like I think consequences can be used appropriately if they fit the situation. But really good when paired with that reconnection, that repair work as well. Here's an example, like, oh, you broke X. Let's say you like broke some art supplies or something. Okay. Well, right now then you'll need to be using this other thing, pencil, instead of the art supplies. And you know, that still isn't fun, but they get to have an after consequences. Like, well, if you're going to break this and you're going have to use this and this isn't as fun to use as that, but we'll try again tomorrow. We'll try again in a little bit, whatever it is. You, you threw whatever. Okay, well, we don't want them to throw, but there's probably something driving that throw. Maybe they wanted your attention. Maybe they just need a break. So, what could be the consequence instead? Like if they threw something or knocked something down, maybe like, let's clean it up together. It doesn't have to be just that. when we say you need to clean that up, that should explain all their power and control. And then the defensiveness starts and the behavior starts. But when I say, you know, let's do it together or would you like someone to help you? Maybe you can ask someone to help you. It's a consequence. You have to clean it up. That's the consequence. But you're not alone. I also don't, I really don't like removal. Like I mentioned, not liking, removal in that like a break is fine, like a time away, but like removal as in like a consequence, a threat, because it removes connection. It says to them, like, you have to earn my love. You have to be a certain way to be accepted here. And the reality is, like, we don't earn love or presence. That is just something we, in our roles of working with raising children, need to offer. You just receive those things. Even when you mess up, still receive them, maybe even more when you mess up. But a lot of kids are pining for attention. And yes, we don't want to reinforce the negative behavior. At the same time, when you remove attention by forcing them to get a timeout, that actually deepens the psychological scar because the need under it, driving it, it's like attachment, relationship, attention building. So maybe what you do is, okay, next time I'm gonna solve the problem, but I'm gonna give them a little bit of attention next time, like a 30 second dose of attention before the activity, because they keep seeking my attention during the activity. But if I can give them attention before, they might not need it during. And then I don't have to worry about reinforcing attention negatively while it's going on.

Lauren Spigelmyer: So, just think about like, what's driving? What's driving these behaviors? Okay, so let's do a little reflection here. What's one consequence that you might use often that could be shame based? And then what would it look like to add a little repair statement into your corrections? Maybe write that statement down to use in the future. Like if a child's losing it, can we work towards replacing them losing it, us losing it with like, okay, let's just try that again. Let's try again. Everyone needs another try. Let's take a break and try again. Like whatever it may be. But really thinking about, am I responding in a way that's helpful for them, that's educating them, that's getting the underlying need met, or am I just trying to stop the behavior? I'm just trying to stop the behavior and I maybe get it stopped because I issue a consequence or a punishment. What I have done is I probably have ruptured the relationship and the trust and the work between us that I've built. all this time and two, they feel probably unseen, unheard, unaccepted as they are and they really just need our help. So is what you're offering, know, teaching them and helping them. Okay. Again, not saying ditch all the consequences, just saying anchor them in connection first. And that's where the true like connection, learning, regulation comes into play. And from there, beautiful things happen. This is the kind of work we do at Five Ives. This is why I love this work. love this work with educators, with nonprofits who work with kids. We've done this work in a very different way, but similar with the nervous system with police and medical. It's not always just people who work with kids. It's other fields too that are high stress, high burnout. Cause that's what we're doing. We're trying to help people understand from a frontline staff, from a leadership level, what's going on with the nervous system in those individuals. And then the individuals those people are serving. And then as a collective whole in the organization or the business. and then trying to coach through that so that people aren't burning out. That's the whole point is not feel like you don't want to get up and go to work the next day. But I something really exciting I want to share. And I shared it in the last couple of episodes. Dr. Jessica Doering and I, my partner at Five Ives, we have created a program called the Behavior Breakthrough. And this is an amazing course that is designed at self-paced online, research back, like highly researched back, like trauma invested, nervous system backed, neuroscience informed. And it's helping educators to really understand behavior through a nervous system lens and prevent burnout of themselves before it gets to that point. But just really, I mean, I'm talking about behavior a little bit in these last couple of episodes, but I'm talking more like digging in deep here. And it will help you to respond to behavior, mostly challenging behavior, in ways that actually work and create more calm and connection in your classroom. The best part is you walk away with 4.5 credits from the University of Pennsylvania. Lovely for those of you who might be able to get reimbursements from the school. You get a grade at the end of the semester. It runs summer, fall, spring. We are moving through the summer cohort right now. It's been awesome. The feedback is amazing. And we'll run the fall cohort in a couple of weeks here. if there's something that you're interested in or even just interested in learning more about, one, we're to put the link in the show notes here so that you can go to the landing page to learn more about the course. But if you want to chat with us about anything, just go to the five Ives website, F I V E I V E S and any contact on there will come right to us. And we can, we can contact you. Also, my email and Jessica's email, this is just Lauren or Jessica at five ives.com F I V E I V E S. So, if you email either of us, we'll, get it that way too. Don't forget to lock in what you learned today by applying it right away and just like talking about it with someone, finding a way to hold yourself accountable. and shifting a little bit. Next episode, how to get buy-in, but without power struggles. Until next episode, I'm Lauren Spigelmyer and thank you for joining me.


Categories: : Emotional Regulation

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